“Your ACT people “don’t bother changing beliefs” because they do not know how, except for talking to that person and trying to reason with him. As mentioned, it does not work. Why? Because once again, [b]Beliefs have to be changed at a subconscious level. [/b]”

Traditional Cognitive-Behavioral Therapy was trying to replace old thought patterns through forcing new ones in that place, challenging them rationaly, ressisting and exposure – it worked to degree mainly because of bahavioral part of therapy.

Thrird wave Cognitive-Behavioral Therapy as “Acceptance and Commitment Theraphy” is claiming what you claiming – this is impossible to outhink youself… so you must ACT – thats only what left.

Acceptance doesnt mean that you give up – not at all! You just accept what is beyond your control and what is hurting you that you cannot change (“thoughts that are hurting you cannot be changed logicaly so stop fighting with em”), and encourage you to go for what you want to achieve in life (behavioral change – that is what’s giving actual results).

I know hypnotherapyst who was using CBT combined with hypnosis, now he is using ACT combined with it for greaster results in treatment social phobia, anxieties, pain, psychosis. He is working in hospital for 30 years now and he is using hypnosis to push foward in life those who can do that by their own, not by selling them “giving up” attitude, but “go and get it” attitude.

I’m all for change just like you – I’ve just had “paradigm shift” lately and I wasnt looking for that one to back up my lack of hope.

This concept is somewhat hard to grasp (for me was, I was thinking about A.C.T. just as you), but we are talking about same stuff realy.

Cheers!

Great reply. Fully agree, and good point on NOT tying your self-worth to taking steps to improve your social skills.

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Ragz,

I don’t want to go back and forth on this issue, but I feel compelled to reply because there are other guys reading this who are looking to improve their situations, and what you write is not helping them.

Self-acceptance ought to come through a positive self-image, not through “Hey, accept that you are a loser.”

AS FAR AS CHANGING BELIEFS:

I agree that consciously trying to believe differently does not work.
However, there are subconscious reasons for beliefs and they are NOT ALWAYS LOGICAL. The subconscious mind may be trying to protect him/her from something that is not a danger.

Did you read the Blog article I referenced? It does not sound like it. So again, a person who fell into a well, or was locked in a dark basement/closet as a child may have developed severe claustrophobia, [fear of tight spaces] as a result. Now that it’s affecting his/her job, his love life and such, it is counterproductive to his or her life. It’s simple cause and effect.

Your ACT people “don’t bother changing beliefs” because they do not know how, except for talking to that person and trying to reason with him. As mentioned, it does not work. Why? Because once again, Beliefs have to be changed at a subconscious level.

Doctors are always running their mouths telling people what they can and cannot do, and repeatedly they’re proven wrong. Still, they won’t accept it.

Reading your two lengthy posts, I gather you seem to have a belief that says, “You are fucked, and accept that you’re a fucked up person, and maybe by accepting how fucked up you are, you’ll be able to function in society.”

Then you want to find studies from people who support your beliefs. I don’t know why, but you desperately want to believe that. I’ve seen too much evidence to the contrary.

Sorry man! I cannot allow that unchallenged on this blog. It’s counterproductive to everything I am trying to help other people with and that sort of defeated attitude is going to make people worse.

I’d much prefer an attitude along the lines of:

“Stop making excuses. Get your shit together. Take a step forward everyday and make your life just a little better. Study those who are successful in ways you want to be.”

take care

Cheers!

Ragz

You miss my point, in what I quote two things hit me.

First:

“(…)The ones that teach you how to think are more invaluable than the ones that teach you how to just do something.”

Second:

“He was very correct in his assessment. An “Auto shop” or “Carpentry” class will teach you how to fix a car and saw wood. There is immediate gratification in learning in how to change your car’s oil and rotate its tires. However, they don’t train the brain.”

In “Time” article they wrote that doing something is training your unconscious brain far more better than telling you how to think when it comes to confidence which is related to social skills. That was just something what came up to my mind when I was reading that part of your article, but it is connected with second thing.

Second thing is that I was quoting articles and research about role of acceptance because you wrote about gurus who claim “Hey, just be yourself man. You are fine the way you are.”

In those studies (ACT state of the evidence (July 2008, PowerPoint)file, pages 116-122)we can see that acceptance is huge when it comes to self confidence which essential in pick up.

I know that you were writing about gurus which are taking acceptance concept to the extreme, and tell their students to do nothing, but I thought you may want to read about it.

As far as your answer goes I will agree with it only partially, why?

Because believe like for example “all women are bitches” can be caused by completely other factor and changing that believe can screw someone up in different way. Our mind is trying to protect us from pain for example of being rejected by others, so let say man with small cock may develop believe that women are bitches to keep his ego from being crushed by their judgment. So that was never about woman and never started from subconscious believe. Mare than that – if he change that one rationally his subconscious mind will make up some new story to protect him from being rejected and make him feel better about himself and about not getting women that he wants.

I agree that you can be trapped in negative cycle that is reinforcing false believe, but no believe is there without reason. Mentioned before ACT therapist don’t even bother to challenge that fucked up believes because they know that this won’t do any good in longer run.

They probably would tell him “yeah, maybe they are bitches, maybe not, this doesn’t matter. You value love and you want to build something worthwhile with woman? So accept that pain is something that always be in place, and don’t fight with, embrace fact that women may be bitches, and go for what you want. What funeral speech you choose for yourself, a) “He always was taking care of his loving family and friends” or b) “He always knew that women are bitches” ;)

In the process of accepting himself and pain, he may see that women aren’t bitches, just as guy who changed his believes and tried to meet them. But guy who changed his believe about women consciously is still resisting eventual pain so he will came up with some other excuse to avoid being hurt.

Thx for your time Cam, I’m big fan of your work!

Ragz

The advice given before was “your self is shit, this is the ONLY way to get girls. If you aren’t peacocking or half of your wardrobe isn’t from hot topic you’re screwed”. This type of advice naturally spawned the opposite feel good advice of “just be yourself”.

“Be yourself” is not entirely useless advice but it needs to be given to a person at a certain level. The community does go to extremes and rarely considers what works at one level doesn’t work at another. I take “be yourself” as ” don’t try so hard”, so that advice will work for someone who has conquered their fears, insecurities, being sexual with women and has a great amount of social mastery.

At that level they can let go of being concerned with the outcome, stop trying to work so hard on social intelligence and it will take their “game” to a new level.

But for someone who is just starting to work on improving with women it will be completely useless. They will consider their nervousness around women and their social ineptitude as being themselves.

A great quote that can sum up your path to getting good with women is “Always be happy but never satisfied” Learn to get your inner issues handled while working on social mastery. Even then getting social intelligence is working on your inner game because it’s refining your inner world on a subconscious level, just like Cameron said.

The way to improve on your social skills but still being happy with yourself is to make the two things separate. Most people identify themselves with their skill in various things. They see themselves as being bad with women and feel bad about themselves but skill with women or socializing is not who you are.

Getting better at anything is not done by a straightforward climb to the top. There will be many ups, where you feel on top of the world, and many downs, where you feel like nothing goes right. If you identify yourself by your skill level your self esteem will take many hits in the process of reaching the top.

If you dis-identify (probably not a real word) with social intelligence you can be happy and content with yourself but at the same time still continue to improve on what you need in order to get with women. Your social skills will get better and your self esteem will not be overly affected by it.

I am not sure why you are quoting articles on “Cognitive Therapy” since it has nothing to do with what I wrote in the article. Improving your social SKILLS is a fundamental part of becoming better in attracting women.

Now as far as changing how you feel:

Changing the way you fundamentally think about something and the way you approach it affects how you FEEL about it.

For example, take someone who is hates a group of people. Let’s look at someone who hates ALL people in any of the following groups: Women, Gays, Russians, Jewish people, Black people, etc…. It does not matter which group. You see people who commit hates crimes on the news.

That hatred is driven by the beliefs that person has possess. It’s that simple. The beliefs could range from the way he that person sees himself to the way he sees the people of that group.

A person who believes “All women are bitches and out to get your money and use you” is going to feel differently towards women than the person who believes otherwise.

Furthermore, the hateful person is going to BEHAVE differently towards women as a result of that belief. Most likely, he is going to attract some low self-esteem woman who in turn makes him even more miserable. He then feels worse about women as well as HIMSELF. His belief is reinforced that women are bitches and a vicious cycle has started.

For that guy, it all started with the belief that “All women are bitches who are out to get him.” You can apply example to any of the people above who hate a group of people. The point is: it starts with subconscious beliefs.

You propose working on your feelings? Well, that’s great. Do that. A person who subconsciously believes he/she is a piece of shit is not going to feel that great about himself/herself.

Speaking of which, you have to also remember that the subconscious mind is mostly responsible for our feelings. “Knowing how to think” is NOT what I am talking about.

It’s intuitively changing the way you think. It happens subconsciously.

Do you think about “Knowing how to drive a car” every time you sit behind a wheel? No. You sit in the car, turn the keys and go. You just do it because it’s ingrained subconsciously. Same process here.
Change the way the subconscious views something and you change your emotions towards it.

I’ve already written a Blog entry about it:
http://attractwomenanywhere.com/blog/2009/03/10/strengthening-your-innergame-part-2/

Stay tuned, another blog entry to come on this topic…

“Hence, “you are fine the way you are” might be very true. But if you’re are “really cool”, you have to act “really cool”. There was something like “having edge is useless without being a cool guy first” in one of the previous articles. For me, it’s not only useless, it’s even counterproductive.”

Yes, very true. Also, you are fine the way you are can be looked in various ways. You may be fine socially, well dressed, and good looking. However, your self-esteem may need improvement. In essence, you are fine the way you are, in the sense that you already have the tools you need for the most part.

The problem is that you don’t believe it. You need to start believing it and behaving that way. In essence, YOU are fine, your belief system is not.

It’s learning to get rid of that fear you have regarding women. You have to become aware of what beliefs are driving that fear.

For you, it may be a process of REALIZING that women naturally WANT a tall, athletic guy like you. In a way, you’re being a dick for depriving them of that. You’re being a dick for depriving them of having a chance to be with a guy like you.

You wrote:

” When I was in college, I remember having a discussion with someone regarding the knowledge you learn in school and how applicable it is once you graduate. He was an interesting guy in his late 30s, or early 40s. He was going back to school to get his law degree, and from chatting with him you can tell he was pretty intelligent. He said something that always stuck me with, “There are classes that teach you how to do something, and there are ones that teach you how to think. The ones that teach you how to think are more invaluable than the ones that teach you how to just do something.”

He was very correct in his assessment. An “Auto shop” or “Carpentry” class will teach you how to fix a car and saw wood. There is immediate gratification in learning in how to change your car’s oil and rotate its tires. However, they don’t train the brain.

Classes in physics, mathematics, philosophy (and even literature) may be quite unpopular to most students but they form your way of thinking. They create a blueprint for the way you think in the future. In some ways, they help form logical pathways that lead to a discovering a working model for doing things in general. So while you may not consciously apply “Newton’s 3 Laws of Motion,” somewhere you in the back of your mind the concept has been ingrained and it affects your decision making.”

But here is something else to think about:

“In addition to questioning negative thoughts in the therapy office, cognitive therapists use behavioral homework assignments–for instance, phobic patients may be asked to expose themselves to fears (like Beck going through the tunnel). Depressed clients are asked to schedule regular activities. But if cognitive therapy is all those things, critics say, maybe getting better is a matter of merely changing old behaviors, not questioning negative beliefs.

Beck hypothesizes that the cognitive parts of the therapy–challenging thoughts, developing new beliefs–add value to the changes in everyday behavior and routine that the therapy encourages. But he acknowledges that no trial has proved that. In fact, a team at the University of Washington has shown in two studies that the cognitive elements of the therapy add nothing. Among more severely depressed patients, behavioral techniques like setting up new routines and scheduling activities worked as well as an antidepressant and significantly better than cognitive therapy. When I asked Beck about the studies, he called them “intriguing” but–since no other lab has yet produced similar results–”not yet proven.”"

(source http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1156613-7,00.html , further reasearch: http://www.contextualpsychology.org/state_of_the_act_evidence – open 2008 presentation)

Knowing how to think is good but this doesnt change our feelings much. Pick up is in most part about us feeling confident and (as far as third wave PhD’s are claiming) only doing something in the name of our values, without resisting our current “state of being” is working on our feelings. Maybe this is propper “acceptance” attitude.

This is something what just came up to my mind when I’ve read “doing vs knowing” part, and here we go.

English isnt my native language but I hope you will understand me well.

Cheers,

Ragz

I have this “problem” – I look good, I’m tall and I am quite athletic. When people meet me, they expect me to be cool, self-confident guy.

Recently I’ve read what Jimmy Page said about meeting Robert Plant for the first time: “When I auditioned him and heard him sing, I immediately thought there must be something wrong with him personality-wise or that he had to be impossible to work with, because I just could not understand why, after he told me he’d been singing for a few years already, he hadn’t become a big name yet.”

And this is the case: when I hesitate, people (not only women), think “there’s something wrong with this guy”, because being afraid is not congruent with my physique & looks.

Hence, “you are fine the way you are” might be very true. But if you’re are “really cool”, you have to act “really cool”. There was something like “having edge is useless without being a cool guy first” in one of the previous articles. For me, it’s not only useless, it’s even counterproductive.

PS. There’s an old “traditional” Slovak song that is sung when everybody gets drunk, something like “sweet girl, you can fuck every man you want, but don’t fuck the one who’s afraid of it”. :-D So very true.

Thank you so much, and I really mean it. That really resonated with me. You have an amazing ability to shine a light of common sense on dating. You might find me doing some phone coaching with you or ordering your audio product soon :)

Today I did it, I let my “masculine and sexual vibe” really take over. I was out in a club, talked to a beautiful girl for 1 hour and flirted a lot with her, probably the most aggressive flirting I ever did in my life. Even though she had left her previous relationship three weeks ago and was still hurt from it, I almost had her agreeing to go on a date with me. I kept being assertive and showing her I really wanted to see her again. She turned my invitation down in the end but really I saw the sparks in her eyes, the constant hair touching and her “wow, this guy is a man” look. Just gotta keep on doing this. It’s clearly the missing piece in my direct approaches.