The Drama with Soporno…

This is not a direct response to the topic, but one of the behaviours it alleges; so called ‘AMOGing’ (one-upmanship by any other name)

That’s one aspect of ‘Game’ I read about that I’ve really *never* beelieved in. its useful to get more sensitivity about when someone is trying to tool you. But as to trying to ‘AMOG’ others in a concious effort to be ‘more attractive’, I think that’s actually a really weak behaviour that will backfire on you eventually. a.k.a. your friends will think you’re a dick.

Here’s the email I sent to Cameron, quoting the email I’d received from a concerned appreciator:

Hey Cameron,
I’ve noticed you taking pot-shots at me for some time, but didn’t think anything of it at the time…

What’s up with this?

J
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 10:56:33 +0900
From: xxxxxxxxxxx@googlemail.com
To: Johnny Soporno

2009/12/4 xxxxxxxxxx
I also never listen to the Barry Kirkey show but the day that you went on I thought I would listen. Then the following day I checked back to see what was said since I knew that Barry always talks about his guests once they’ve left but never directly to them. I don’t know if you’ve noticed but you can always see what Barry has talked about on his show by looking at his bullet points and since the whole week Cameron was in studio it seemed that there was a bullet point about you I listened to hear what was being said.
To be honest with you I couldn’t tell you everything that the two of them said since there was just so much stuff but Cameron really seemed to hate you. The day after you left Barry spent a considerable amount of time talking about how weird you were and how you refused to leave his house as well as a bunch of other things. Cameron and Barry both kept mentioning how condescending you are and how they think you are “creepy” and so on and so forth. Like I said I don’t remember it all since there were just so many things one after another but they trashed you in almost any way. They attacked your character, then your seductive reasoning paradigm with Cameron repeatedly saying he thought it was “bullshit” and that if you tried it you would come off as being a weirdo to women. And then they actually started making derogatory comments about Violet after going to her website on the show. They discussed making a fake email address to communicate with her to get info about her courtesan services etc etc.
There was a lot of stuff, and I mean a lot!

Here’s my intentionally ultra-condescending reply, the irony of which was entirely lost on Cameron and Barry Kirkey, somehow… ;)

———————————————

When people began sending me reports of your being disloyal and backstabbing, that got my attention, so I wrote to you directly, to prevent this getting stupid……………………….

I am the guy who sent Johnny the email about you after having heard you trashing him on the Kirkey show. Here is the email I sent him and that he later sent you.

“I also never listen to the Barry Kirkey show but the day that you went on I thought I would listen. Then the following day I checked back to see what was said since I knew that Barry always talks about his guests once they’ve left but never directly to them. I don’t know if you’ve noticed but you can always see what Barry has talked about on his show by looking at his bullet points and since the whole week Cameron was in studio it seemed that there was a bullet point about you I listened to hear what was being said.
To be honest with you I couldn’t tell you everything that the two of them said since there was just so much stuff but Cameron really seemed to hate you. The day after you left Barry spent a considerable amount of time talking about how weird you were and how you refused to leave his house as well as a bunch of other things. Cameron and Barry both kept mentioning how condescending you are and how they think you are “creepy” and so on and so forth. Like I said I don’t remember it all since there were just so many things one after another but they trashed you in almost any way. They attacked your character, then your seductive reasoning paradigm with Cameron repeatedly saying he thought it was “bullshit” and that if you tried it you would come off as being a weirdo to women. And then they actually started making derogatory comments about Violet after going to her website on the show. They discussed making a fake email address to communicate with her to get info about her courtesan services etc etc.
There was a lot of stuff, and I mean a lot!”

He contacted you to ask about the email I sent him. He did not contact you to ask why you said he was condescending on the Kirkey show. You are misrepresenting the facts there Cam.

You may have written an email to him that was very blunt but it was only after you had run around behind his back trashing him for so long that he finally called you on it.

And on another note, don’t you think that Johnny copied the email exchange between the two of you to Kirkey since it involved what had happened on Kirkey’s show? Johnny has said in many interviews and on his videos that he won’t ever say something behind someone’s back that he won’t say to their face. (obviously a quality that the two of you don’t share) Johnny talked about Kirkey in your email exchange and therefore probably wanted Kirkey to be aware of how he felt since the both of you were trashing him, not just you.

This is the email I sent Cameron yesterday after listen to the Barry Kirkey show:

Hi Cameron,
I am the guy who sent Johnny Soporno the emails about what you had been saying on Kirkey’s radio show. I head you saying on his show today that you thought he had actually written the emails himself. I’m here to tell you that Johnny is not the only guy who has good spelling. Johnny was trying to protect me and therefore did not disclose my name and email.
The reason that I told Johnny what you had said was because I felt that he was not aware that you disliked him. I saw pictures of you up on his myspace and flickr accounts and heard him mentioning you in his seductive reasoning videos saying that he was going to meet you in Vegas. Johnny has done a lot for me in terms of how his seductive reasoning videos have changed my life and I just wanted to do this little thing for him in return.
I think it’s funny how you spent over an hour on Kirkey’s show today telling him that you thought he should be more up front and honest with people yet this is exactly what you did not do with Johnny. Johnny had no idea that you felt the way you did when I sent him those emails. You even admitted on a previous appearance on Kirkey’s show that you never said anything to Johnny in person and the next time you see him you are going to make rude comments to him whenever he is condescending or makes jokes that you think are stupid. On the show today you continued to bash Johnny behind his back. I say behind his back because there were things that you guys talked about today that you did not tell Johnny in your email exchange. You’re a complete hypocrite Cameron.
I actually thought that Johnny’s reply to you was very polite and commented to him that I would have been much more scathing. How can you object to Johnny being condescending when you and Kirkey constantly bash other people in the “community” and spend so much time attacking Johnny?
Hopefully by talking so much about Johnny on the show other listeners will actually check out his material and see how revolutionary it is unlike yours which is just rehashed “community” bullshit.
Neil

Cameron replied to me!

I don’t know whether to take your email seriously or not…. Assuming you’re serious,

A. No one can condescend others that much without knowing that he is doing it. Barry gets upset by little things people do which are not done on purpose. Johnny’s habit of putting people down is not by mistake. Your hero purposely shits on people.

B. If he didn’t know, he knew after the nice honorable email I sent him.

C. You think his reply is “Polite” What Koolaid are you drinking?

D. So much time attacking Johnny? Are you the guy who also told him we spent an entire week bashing him? It was a semgent on 1 show. Seriously? Get over yourself.

E. Not sure what community you live in , but I am sure you’ve now creeped out your fair share of women in your city/campus/state with your sexual predator routine.

F. Should you attend a seminar where I am at, please come and say hello. I am always curious what disciples of Johnny look/act like. Just don’t wear the fucking horns. (If you’re still drinking the kool-aid a year down the line.)

Last point: Why do you insist on listening to Barry Kirkey constantly when you don’t even like his show? Just curious. I don’t like GOLF. Guess what? I don’t watch it.

Thanks,
Cameron

Ps. How do you have this email address? Oh, let me guess, through the honorable Johnny Soprono.

And I replied:

A. No one can condescend others that much without knowing that he is doing it. Barry gets upset by little things people do which are not done on purpose. Johnny’s habit of putting people down is not by mistake. Your hero purposely shits on people.

So what are you and Barry doing? Even if Johnny does shit on people, which I’m not saying he does, at least he has the balls to do it to their face. You on the other hand go on public forums, write blog posts and go on podcasts and shit on Johnny and other members of the PUA community.

B. If he didn’t know, he knew after the nice honorable email I sent him.

Not only does he now know that you think he shits on you but he also knows that you dislike him. Johnny was surprised to hear what I said when I contacted him telling him what you and Barry were saying on the show. This is the problem Cameron, you never expressed your feelings directly to him. You did exactly what you were telling Kirkey not to do. Hypocrite.

C. You think his reply is “Polite” What Koolaid are you drinking?

Obviously I saw that Johnny was poking at you but what do you expect?! What I meant was that it was much more polite then I would have been. After all the things that you said about him it’s about time he said something back and if it had been me I would have ripped you to shreds.

D. So much time attacking Johnny? Are you the guy who also told him we spent an entire week bashing him? It was a semgent on 1 show. Seriously? Get over yourself.

You’re a liar if you claim that you only talked about Johnny on one show. I listened all week Cameron, you may be able to convince people like Johnny who don’t listen to the show that you only talked about him once but I heard you bringing him up time and time again. You may have only had an entire segment on him once but throughout the week you guys would take little cheap shots at him every now and again.

E. Not sure what community you live in , but I am sure you’ve now creeped out your fair share of women in your city/campus/state with your sexual predator routine.

I appreciate your concern but I haven’t, Johnny’s ideas have changed my life for the better.

F. Should you attend a seminar where I am at, please come and say hello. I am always curious what disciples of Johnny look/act like. Just don’t wear the fucking horns. (If you’re still drinking the kool-aid a year down the line.)

Will this by at one of Johnny’s seminars? Will you be at the attracting pornstars seminar in Vegas? I know you’ve attended his seminars before. I’d love to come see you face to face next time I get a chance.

Last point: Why do you insist on listening to Barry Kirkey constantly when you don’t even like his show? Just curious. I don’t like GOLF. Guess what? I don’t watch it.

I listen to Barry Kirkey’s show when I see Johnny’s name in the bullet points about the show. I am interested to hear what Johnny himself says and what people have to say about Johnny. If Kobe Bryant was playing golf, you would watch wouldn’t you?

Ps. How do you have this email address? Oh, let me guess, through the honorable Johnny Soprono.

Since I was the one who informed Johnny about what you were saying about him and my email was not only sent to you but also mentioned on Kirkey’s show he sent me your entire email exchange.

Finally, I think that you can tell a lot about a person from the people who they are friends with. It is my understanding that you are friends with people like Barry Kirkey and Sinn, I think that says it all right there…

Neil

Here’s my reply to Cameron’s response:

Hey Cam,

Thanks for taking the time to respond; I feel much better having heard what you have to say

When people began sending me reports of your being disloyal and backstabbing, that got my attention, so I wrote to you directly, to prevent this getting stupid.

Cameron Writes:
> Hey Johnny,

>Your anonymous emailer makes a lot of assumptions. There are a lot of people in the “Pick up/ Dating” business I enjoy joking about including “Mystery.”. I don’t hate them, but the weirdness of it all is so rich, it’s fun joking about.

Sure, ALL self-described Pick Up Artists are creepy fucks, and overwhelmingly socially maladjusted, it makes them easy targets. I get that.

>As for the alleged “Potshots.”

The ‘Potshots’ I was referring to which I had been overlooking were nothing to do with the Kirkey show – they were things like your STD comments about your sofa, etc… and your accusations of my saying “Trust me” to you…

The stuff you’ve said about me on Sinn’s podcast or Kirkey’s show I presumed were just your trying to make ‘good radio’ and since I never listened to them myself, I didn’t care.

A) I don’t agree with the “Seductive reasoning paradigm” I know it’s your source of epiphany, but I find both its reasoning and effectiveness faulty. I don’t think that’s a potshot. Just a professional disagreement.

No, that is certainly not taken as a potshot – although I can’t see how it could be a ‘professional disagreement’ either, since it’s got nothing whatsoever to do with any profession we share? Nor, frankly, to do with any professional or commercial aspect?

Since it’s not a ‘seduction tool’ at all, nor a device for picking up women, nor a routine, I can see why you’d have such trouble comprehending it, since you continue to insist on framing it as though it were.

I am disappointed that you still feel this way after you’ve had it explained to you so many times, in the most basic possible ways.
I’ll be happy to again try to help you understand it next time we meet, if you still can’t wrap your head around it.

> B) Being condescending. Johnny, you’re very condescending to people around you while hanging out with them.

I’m sorry you’ve seen the brunt of that; it’s never my intention to condescend to anyone, but when a person simply can’t or won’t meet me on my level, it is murderously challenging to ‘dumb things down’ sufficiently without it’s being obvious. You are absolutely right for calling me out on this. I have nothing but respect for my peers. Steve P, Hypnotica. Jamie Smart, Zan, Dr. Paul, Doc, and equiv. men have never experienced my condescension, as I’ve never felt compelled to patronize them, nor even to remain tolerant of their juvenile behaviours.

> At first, I thought it was just accidental, but after prolonged exposure, I realized that it’s very deliberate.

Not so, as a matter of fact. – It’s explicitly NOT deliberate, and now that you’ve drawn my attention to it, I will endeavour to keep it from happening going forward.

>Lastly, the most peculiar part of it is that you’re doing this to people who study & TEACH social dynamics for a living.

The only such people to whom I’ve condescended were people who were actively teaching misinterpretations and misapprehensions about social dynamics, particularly stuff which they’ve dogmatically accepted as fact because they studied these teaching of others who were no more insightful than themselves.
As I mentioned, my condescension is reflexive, and ‘comes on’ when I recognize that reason is not an option, and that the speaker knows not what he’s saying, but genuinely isn’t aware of it.

>Man, you must think the rest of are pretty damn stupid.

You omitted the objective pronoun in that sentence.

> I find irony, in that for a guy who admonishes “Mystery/Markovic” for using “Negs” and put downs on women, you far outdo him in your fair share of put downs on men. As a matter of fact, for all the times I hung out with him, I cant’ recall Mystery using “Neg” type of behavior around his male buddies.

I can understand that! ‘Negs’ are designed to lower the subjective value of a person who presumes or asserts that they are at a higher ‘value’ than you can be.

With women, I never feel as though their confident sense-of-self puts them on a level out-of-reach from me – I don’t need to ‘knock them off their high-horse’ to feel I’m on an even footing with them, and they sense this intuitively.

With ‘Pick Up Artists’, nearly everything I hear come out of their mouths is so alarmingly misguided and misogynistic, I am continually overwhelmed by the need to pull their heads out of their asses.

> So there you have it. It’s NOT for me to tell you or others how to live your life or how to conduct yourself. I don’t make it a point to talk about you, but if someone (like Barry) mentions being belittled by you, then I am going to agree based on my personal experience.

That’s cool – and I appreciate your being so up-front about it

If you get the chance, grab a copy of my interview with Barry – listen to it and make up your own mind as to whether I belittled him at all. I think you’ll be surprised and impressed by my composure and conduct, despite Barry’s fifth-grade antics. (I suspect he felt that my behaving as an adult while he was being a disruptive and annoying brat constituted ‘belittling him’.)

Johnny

I’ve been observing the community of pickup artists for 10 years now. I’ve learned from many, hung out with many, and seen how most have evolved, devolved, or drew in scammy marketers (or became scammy marketers themselves).

If I’ve made one conclusive observation, one that can be applied consistently all the time, it’s this:

The “PUAs” or PUA businesses which are the most suspect as those who either shift with the wind based on where the current marketing works best or the ones who are inherently stuck in a single way of thinking (theirs) and don’t open their minds (publicly) as to the merits of what someone else has to say.

For example, if the “in” thing is “inner game” and some PUA or business out of the blue over-does the “I’m the inner game expert” marketing, it’s fair to say that they’re a sell-out scammer. If the next new thing is “direct game” and you see “I’m the direct game expert” from someone then don’t walk away, RUN AWAY.

If there is a “PUA” out there who has formulated a “method” which they try to claim is the best and only method to ever be used & all others are crap, then it’s fair to say that person or business has their head up their ass or selling you a load of shit. Usually, from my observation, what such PUAs actually do off-the-radar is totally different than what they claim or in contradiction to it. Usually they way such guys defend themselves in an argument is to state that they have a strong reality frame or other BS.

Sorry, but pickup is tied to social behavior and social behavior is essentially a science. Therefore any guy teaching pickup or anything related to it (dating, seduction, attraction, social improvement, whatever…) and claiming some level of effectiveness HIGHER than that of typical behavior must carry themselves in a SCIENTIFIC way. If marketing is determining the science, then it’s weak & suspect. If, further, what is presented is different than the reality, then that is also weak & suspect.

A science must also be open to criticism, peer review, and tests of its efficacy. If something is only applicable within certain circumstances/environments with certain types of people, then the “science” should be presented that way. Nothing is applicable to everyone, and any claim to the contrary is usually just more marketing junk.

Nothing screams “sham” better than claims that one method, and one method only, is the “best”, applicable to all, and above criticism.