Mystery: Erik Von Markovic vs. Mode 1: Roger Allan Currie.
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Quick Primer: There is a “seduction community” out there where “Pick Up Artists” and their rivals discuss various methods of attracting women, picking up chicks, and getting laid. For the most part, I try to avoid it like a plague. Yes, I know that I’ve fraternized with the head honchos and the “Who’s who” of the community, but I’ve moved on from it. Except for a handful of people I keep in touch with, I avoid the individuals, events, and whatever else that is community related.
I still receive loads of emails from various guys who want to ask me questions ranging from a situation with a particular girl to “Who’s full of shit?” to “What do you think of this drama?” The latest email tells me there is a debate between Mystery, Erik Von Markovic as seen on VH-1’s Pick Up Artist, versus a guy who calls himself Mode One, otherwise known as Roger Allen Currie.
While I am sure enthused folk will be listening with more glee than if they were watching an Obama vs. McCain Presidential debate, I will be happily skipping it..
However, a lot of you want to know which system is better and why. What should you do? Who is right? Whom should you follow? What’s more effective?
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Whose advice will help YOU attract girls?
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I am going to give you a crash course right now! Brace yourself. Maybe go grab a cup of coffee, a beer, or beverage of your choice and come back. Here is what’s going to happen:
Erik Von Markovic will promote Mystery Method: A 9-step linear system where you have to stick to very rigid rules. You can’t be direct with women, nor can you show interest until you have “Demonstrated Higher Value.” (It never assumes you have higher value Basically, you’re a jerkoff who has to prove himself first.)
You should always start indirect, then transition later. Then, it gets more complicated. If you see a proverbial “9”, you can’t approach her right away. You ought to first social proof yourself and he has a myriad of techniques for that as well.
Roger Alan Currie will promote his Mode One: My basic understanding is that he believes men communicate in 3 or 4 modes. Mode One guys are the ones who are super-direct, and there rest are chumps and dickheads. (or something like that.) His mode-one communication can be extremely direct, graphic, and sexual.
So which is better? What’s better for YOU? Both systems have pros and cons. OK, here is a quick breakdown, and believe me, I could write volumes on this shit. But I did say it’s a crash course.
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- Mystery Method:
Pros: Encourages you to approach. Gives you a few opinion-openers and such in order to enable you to start up conversations with women. It gives you some ideas of structure and a whole bunch of contrived conversational topics you can talk about with girls.
Cons:
1. Always assumes you’re lesser than the girl. You’re basically some schlemiel loser with little or no value who has to always be proving himself. Limited to one way of thinking, it does not allow you to approach directly, or flirt overtly. It does not assume the possibility that at a party, a woman might actually like you just for whatever reason. Imagine that: A Girl can actually like you for your personality without you having to run “9 Steps of Game.”
Through conditioning, it forces to man to see women as an enemy to be conquered. Even if you don’t have this belief, by practicing this method, your subconscious will adopt the above destructive beliefs.
2. Also, It doesn’t take time to train your attributes. Example: While it may provide you with some rehearsed stories to tell women, it does not teach you HOW to be an engaging storyteller.
3. In the extreme, it may make you a basket case, and possibly mentally ill.
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- Mode One:
Pros: Encourages you to have more balls. It gives you an opportunity a different side where you’re more ballsy and display more guts. It encourages you to be more masculine and let’s face it, if you showed more balls and were more gutsy, you’d have more success.
Cons:
1. Limits you to certain type of women. With statements like, “I’d like to tap that ass”, you’re limiting yourself to a very specific type, and I think you know exactly what I mean. There is a time and place for that sort of thing, but this method does not teach you SOCIAL INTELLIGENCE. Social intelligence is one of the most essential attributes most dating-advice seekers lack.
2. Much like Mystery method, it does not really train your attributes. (Would you care to guess who actually DOES teach attributes? Take a wild guess…. Come on. Indulge me.)
3. Also being direct is limiting in some ways. There are times where it’s not socially pleasant or conducive. In a small social gathering, you can’t tell every girl you find attractive that you want to bang them silly. Maybe I’m old fashioned but having a little social conversation might be a better way to go. Maybe learning how to talk about casual stuff while flirting through your subtext IS A BETTER Way to reach women.
In the extreme, it’ll make you a rude, inconsiderate, socially maladjusted, prick who is not getting invited back to parties or social gatherings.
Just remember that you can opt to be a cool, confident guy with high self-esteem without coming off as a socially unpleasant weirdo.
Do you really want to be that outcast of society?
Any Questions?
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Both systems are limited, and both systems are dogmatic. Neither one really takes the time to enable you to improve your social skills too much. Each will improve you a little at bit first. Think of it as a performance-enhancing supplement.. Small doses will improve your game, but after that small dose, you’re going to want more. More of it doesn’t make you better. It just means kidney failure.
Both systems will have staunch supporters on Internet forums defending it with the zealotry of a Born again Christian or a suicide bomber. They’re all a bit misguided and that they support one particular method so strongly should speak volumes: That they don’t see the limitations of these methods only means they’re not that successful themselves nor do they completely understand the social dynamics. It means run for the hills.
Nevertheless, follow whatever “Method” your heart desires. Enjoy the podcast should you listen. If you have questions or are confused, come back to this article. It’ll be hear to clear away confusions. (And feel free to provide feedback comments if it serves as entertainment.) If you’re looking at the podcast as a means to help guide you in the future, then you’re already in a world of shit.
At the end of the day, if you want to become better at attracting women, take a hard look at yourself. Be honest. What area do you need improvements in? Look at from a macro level. A perspective from afar (as opposed to openers and phone number tricks)
There are three major areas that factor in. It was one of the first articles I wrote on this Blog. Here it is again:
From that outline, you can determine in which areas you need to make drastic improvements. You do that and work to improve; you’ll become more attractive. You get sucked into methods and such, and you get lost in oblivion of “Pick-Up,” a vicious cycle which you’ll chasing your own tail, trying to figure out why your interactions with women aren’t worth talking about.
Keep sight of the goal: It’s to improve your social skills and improve your self esteem.
U should read the Mode One book first though. :)) Alan has a good habit of never critisizing something he did not read fully, and I get the impression that u either skimmed through or were told from a 3rd party. Correct me if I’m wrong.
Personally I liked the Mode One book.
When I read it there are basically 4 types:
1. Guy who does not beat around the bush and is honest
2. Mr. Nice guy tooks them out on dates, compliments before telling women he is interested. Basically showing interest later than several dates.
3. The guy who is afraid of showing any sexual/romantic interest.
4. Misogynist who hates women, he basically wants to pour petrol on women and burn them.
In a nutshell he recommends u do not beat around the bush and u can do this in 3 ways:
PG 13 – Telling her u r interested in having sex with her and/or dating her
R- rated – A little more explicit
XXX rated – this is your “I want to bend u over and fuck you doggy style” manner of speech
Alan says he chooses the manner (PG 13, R or XXX rated) based on type of woman. So Mode One does not necessarily mean u r using explicit language, just means u tell specifically what u want from her in your first conversation.
So Mode One guy does not tell her he wants to date her, if his only interest is casual sex. If he just wants sex, his would tell that in first conversation with language that he deems appropriate based on her type.
If he wants to date her, same thing.
Hey Markus,
Actually neither. I heard interviews with him a couple of years back.
I appreciate you breaking down the 4-modes, (And apparently there are 4, not 3.)
Nevertheless, the matter is simple: By, Always telling women you want to bang them immediately, you’re still posing limitations.
It’s not using social intelligence. I am a fan of being direct, but it’s not an end-all be-all solution. Something most guys in this community cannot get through their heads.
Case and Point: Watch a few episodes of “Californication” TV Show. Watch the Hank Moody character operate. He is very good at suggestive flirtation without having to say “I want to have sex with you.”
He communicates the vibe effectively. (And yes, there are times when he is direct, explicit & filthy.)
I think Roger Mode-1 has good points as well, but his insistence to stick to doctrine poses limitation. It’s that simple.
Either you get that or you don’t. And if choosing to be that rigid works well for you then go for it. Continue to achieve success in dating with it. But then if you found something that works so well, you should never read another dating article, EVER AGAIN.
That goes for anyone reading this blog: IF ANY OF YOU ever find the decent success you seek, you should NEVER AGAIN read another dating article. (OK, maybe one per year so you don’t go through harsh withdrawal.)
take care
Cameron
Hey Cameron,
Yes with mode one u always tell them u want to have sex with them, but the language does not have to be X rated like “I’d like to tap that ass” and similar. It is written in the book, that u do not have to use that language.
The problem that some people have when they read the book, they start approaching every women with this X rated manner, and they make it into some kind of dogma where u must only approach with explicit language. This dogma only fucks them up, since this is no religious matter. :)
Sure u do not have to be overtly direct, communicated the vibe can work just as well, just takes longer.
Personally I like this blog because this is as close to normal guy thinking as community advice gets. Unfortunately most guys and gurus in the community are pretty weird.
Last 2 paragraphs are gold. :)
Cheers.
I think that is not M1, that is using M1 like a technique. The hardcore version of M1 is not the representative of what M1 is, you need to socially calibrate (of course), and because M1 forces you to be more effective and efficient in your approaches you will do more in less time.
It’s hard to understand M1 because “The Community” comes from the paradigm of using routines FTW, so you can think that the routines of M1 are some kind of hardcore speech.
The core of M1 is that in some point you have to verbalize your intentions with the girl not just play subtlely the vibe, and find a girl who likes the same, M1 is creating win-win situations.
Cameron,
What an amazing article. Are you the only in the community who talks about social calibration and who understands every girl is not the same?
The problem is people use sexual language with almost every girl they interact with because they are told if they do not do kino or engage in a sexual conversation they would end up in the “friend zone” very quickly.
Additionally, there are many guys who are obsessed with getting a Same Night lay or want to have sex on the first date and they think if the logistics are right they should start doing kino and start having sexual conversation / escalation. Few people mention the fact that a party girl may be more responsive to such comments whereas a girl who has had very few monogamous relationships might not enjoy such conversation and view the guy as a creepy guy.
The guy is thinking “Gurus tell me logistics are correct and i should escalate”, on the other hand she might be thinking “i just met him one minute ago and he is making such aggressive remarks instantly, whats wrong with him?”
Thanks again for a great article :)
Do an MMA blog next.
Funguy wrote:
Great points. I may write a bit more on that in a follow up post. Most of the guys you mention become obsessed with “Same-night-lays” and such, but they don’t have much success with that or dating in general.
One of the main culprits of that is their lack of social intelligence.
PS. I don’t consider myself as part of the community anymore. LOL
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Brock,
Don’t joke about that dude! I just might start an MMA Blog, which would mean I’d forget about the dating stuff altogether.
Between you and me, I’d much prefer to talk sports & MMA, than discuss garbage regarding Mystery/mode-1 or how to talk to girls.
Good match against Carwin ;-)
Cameron
@Markus If you ask me (I may be limiting myself here) but I think mode one is bs and I totally agree with Cam about MM or VA.
No I haven’t read ModeOne’s book, although I have read his posts and I have gone direct — rated G, PG, PG-13, R, X, XXX, and f^&*k it, MA-17 also — I just have to laugh at all of the theoretical bs advice that is out there.
NO offence Markus, but direct — Mode One way, Shark way, or even BadBoy way — is just not feasible most of the times in the real world. Yes, it has its moments, given the situation and the type of girl.
But the truth is most girls are gonna back off if you go too direct too soon without no “buffer zones”. With them it’s all about a natural progression; not a head on collision of “Are you in or out?” Hell, even with party girls it’s still a natural progression (just that it’s a bit quicker).
Truth: Although women are sexual creatures like us and also fantasize about sexual encounters, it don’t mean that just because you were direct with her, all of a sudden she’s so attracted to you she’s gonna jump your bones right then and there. It don’t work that way.
It’s great to have no fear. It’s great to feel that power. And definitely it’s great to be honest. But going direct the way those guys advise ignores the greater part of the female population that don’t prioritize sex in there lives.
Not everything is black and white. MM is at one extreme (too indirect, makes you weird, and makes you afraid of losing her) and Mode-One is at the other. However, in the real world most times the grey area (in which you can shift from black to white and vice versa if needed) tends to be more effective and is more practical.
Cameron come on…the guy wrote 2 paperbacks and 2 ebooks and you havent read one of them and you claim that mode one is walking up to a women and telling her “I want to tap that ass”…mode one is about being socially savvy and intelligent. I urge you right now to read his first paperback ModeOne let the women know what you’re really thinking.
It is one of the best books on dating I’ve read out there.
Peace
MetalH
He even specifically published his latest ebook “semantics and scenarios” just to clarify misconceptions about M1.
However, his first paperback has become a classic in the dating and relationship self-help book geared towards men.
Another recommended book would be
“Pimp: Story of my life” by Iceberg Slim
and “48 laws of power” by R. Greene.
Another great post – its so important to keep the end goal in mind, that of course being to ‘improve your social skills and self-confidence’. I don’t know too many guys with great social skills and a tonne of self-esteem who struggle getting a date on friday night!
I think Mode 1 will only work if you are a black guy going after ghetto hoes.
Hey Aaroon,
Either that or some1 who’s always feeling high. Lol.
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Hey Cam,
I’ve searched the blog and I see You’ve never talked about Speed Seduction, except maybe in a podcast with Jon Sinn saying that some people take advantage of the fact that most people remain polite when approached.
I’m very curious to hear what someone who advocates for social intelligence has to say about this school.
In case U wanna talk about it, a humble suggestion of mine is to put it as use of nlp, You never know with those obsessed reframers out there. ;-)
Great post Cam,
I don’t know anything about Mode 1, but Mystery method can be a really dangerous place to be, if you develop really toxic beliefs about how women are, and all the things you have to do to get them. Like there’s 0% chance of them being attracted to your personality and such so you need all the right tricks to get around them, and acting in outlandish ways to try and get them, can make you seem really try-hardy.
Although sometimes people get into it, coming from a place of believing all women are angels, (Madonna/Whore syndrome) and so I guess it can be revealing to realise they’re imperfect..
But having really set in stone beliefs about women based on an online scam is pretty dangerous.
Plus it works by approaching hundreds of women, so only a small percentage will go for it and it’s not going to be the better percentage of the female population..
You’re much better of picking up, by being the person you want to attract, and attracting them by actually having a life, which is congruent with your values..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfnBZ_0E0S4
Damn, I was expecting a half way decent article but this is the equivalent of me telling you about Californication vs The Wire – when you’ve seen every episode of Californication and only know that The Wire is a ‘cop’ show, and then you write an expose on the Pros and Cons of each.
I’m not going to be a cheerleader here but I still think it’s only fair to clear up some very basic facts. This main fact being that Alan doesn’t identify with the PUA community either, so he is more aligned with yourself in saying that he is more about ‘mainstream’ dating advice.
Still lame, yes… I agree, but no lamer then yourself if you really want to get into semantics. It’s just business, after all and while I don’t hang out at PUA forums, he could just be the new flavour of the month there.
Saying that, you still do have valid points. Without common sense (or Social Intelligence – as you call it) and a life, then you’re fucked either way.
Johnny,
I take it you’re a fan of Mode-1? You bring up a fair point. My knowledge of his stuff is from listening to him talk about it. It’s incomplete but does paint a picture.
While I do think choosing to stick to one-way all the time is limiting, I also find that he makes some good points.
He also comes across as a seemingly cool normal person.
All things being equal, at least being direct and expression intent does not make you a mental basket case the way “Mystery-Method” (and it’s off-shoot “Love Systems” does.
take care
Cameron
Ps. The above are mere opinions. The two latter companies seem to be very sue-happy. LOL You can add the Neil-Strauss method to the list as well. Same shit… different douchebag teaching it.
One of my loyal friends and supporters who goes by the name “MetalHaze” (or “MetalH” above) referred me to this blog. Interesting blog.
With the exception of the blog user “Aaron,” no one has personally attacked me, so that is a good thing. The blog instantly gains credibility with me on that.
I wanted to respond to 2 or 3 comments though.
1)
Alan’s response: I AGREE and DISAGREE at the same time. When it comes to LANGUAGE and SEMANTICS, I actually do agree that you have to exercise “social intelligence” in many situations. You cannot be in a church service on a Sunday morning, and walk to a woman and say, “Hey … you are very attractive … can I get you suck my dick in a few hours?”
That would be socially inappropriate. Nowhere in my book, “Mode One,” do I specifically encourage men to approach women and express their romantic and/or sexual desires, interests and intentions in a very sexually provocative and/or “X-rated” manner.
But I do always encourage men to express their romantic and/or sexual desires, interests and intentions in a non-misleading, non-manipulative, UPFRONT and STRAIGHTFORWARDLY HONEST manner. If the latter causes a man to be perceived as lacking in “social intelligence,” so be it.
I would rather be REAL and GENUINE with women, at the risk of being perceived as a ‘jerk’ or ‘asshole,’ then to be PLEASANTLY PHONY and be perceived as a ‘well-mannered gentleman.’
2)
Alan’s response: I need you to elaborate on that comment in order to me to fully ascertain what you are saying.
3)
Alan’s response: I love to ‘go against the grain.’ If being ‘socially pleasant’ (or “pleasantly phony” as I like to say) and conventional was the ticket to romantic and sexual success with women, there would be no need for “seduction gurus” and dating coaches.
What you are basically endorsing is what I refer to as Mode TWO Behavior. When a man is exhibiting Mode TWO Behavior with women, on the positive end … he ultimately is honest about his true desires, interests and intentions … but on the downside, his manner of expression tends to be too conventional, and even vague, ambiguous and/or “beat-around-the-bush.”
Ironically, it is Mode TWO Behavior that ultimately LIMITS you. The only women who respond to Mode Two Behavior are those women who are already more-than-willing to exchange orgasms with you. The more ‘challenging,’ egotistical women will very rarely, if ever, fall for Mode Two.
Mode ONE Behavior challenges the social conditioning of women who are manipulative, egotistical and/or pretentious. They may have an adverse reaction AT FIRST … but trust me … days later, weeks later, or months later … most of those same women let you know that you left them INTRIGUED and CURIOUS (this scenario has happened to me DOZENS of times).
My thoughts for today….
ARC
The problem is “dozens of times”. Dozens of times you may have been with someone; but also dozens of times they are not with you. Don’t get offended – just pointing out a flaw that some may not see when someone claims a high number (unless of course, that’s the life you want).
“Mode ONE Behavior challenges the social conditioning of women who are manipulative, egotistical and/or pretentious. They may have an adverse reaction AT FIRST … but trust me … days later, weeks later, or months later … most of those same women let you know that you left them INTRIGUED and CURIOUS (this scenario has happened to me DOZENS of times).”
Well, that’s interesting Alan. The question you could ask then is why would you want to attract women who are manipulative, egotistical and/or pretentious?
Thanks for the reply Alan.
I went ahead and put the original quotes in a quote-format so that your replies are easier to tell apart.
And as I wrote earlier, I don’t always agree with being limited to just being one way, but Mode1 is not going to make a basket case out of you. (that’s an important distinction, because a lot of “pickup” material will mind fuck you by conditioning you to be needy and validation seeking from women and peers.)
Cameron
@ Charlie V … of course exhibiting Mode One Behavior will not result in you attracting the romantic and/or sexual interest of EACH and EVERY woman you approach. No ‘method’ or ‘technique’ results in that.
@ Johnny Utah … you have to first identify the traits of a woman before you decide who you would date, would not date, would exchange orgasms with, would not exchange orgasms with, etc. I’ve had many ‘manipulative’ type women give me head … LOL
@ Cameron … cool. Yes … Mode One Behavior is definitely NOT about seeking approval and/or validation from desirable women. Not at all.
Thanks for the discussion fellas …
ARC
there is no real majic to attracting women, but rather a technique or formula that works for you really. Every man is an indivual and certain techniques will work for the indivual, but not every person. Confidence is key, what to say, and how to say it. Personlly i like this article its good and formative.